Hindu Seer XIV- Postscript

Well, I guess the debate around Hindu Seer will not cease. But it sparked a type of continuation that was amusing, to say the least. People got polarized, and fought and most importantly took a side.

It is important to take a side in matters of issues. Some of course said they left the forum in disgust. But in reality, they never did! For, the temptation to defend their side was just so huge.

I shall see when next shall we rejoin in such a conversation. I have some new friends now: Chinmaya and Vulcan for sure! Good to see people from Orissa, staying outside the land, contributing to the ongoing debates.

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Hindu Seer XIII

Well, another attempt by me:

My dear comrades,
One of the major concerns: What kinds of questions are we asking?

None of us who opposed the religious discourses talked anything about “challenge”, or any roadmap to “eliminate religions” etc. These are as non-issues as any other rightist rhetoric could be. They were brought up by a person who has left this group now, as conitnuation of a logical fallacy.

If AA’s “challenge” be taken seriously, the counter will be something like, “Well, I challenge anyone to convert the entire world to believe in just one God” etc etc.. And here is where we miss the boat. Serious objections by some of us were raised precisely to oppose such kind of talks which served no real purpose. Instead what Chinmaya had brought to notice was an important news of the arrest of an alleged criminal who appeared to be held with esteem by some religious fanatics. That was it. Instead of talking in purely judicial terms and also analyzing the historiography of religious frauds, the self-proclaimed ‘theists’ took it personally! 🙂

I dont see why all these talk about “theist”, “pseudo-atheist” etc. And I dont see why someone should even consider any “challenges” posed by a person who left the group because he felt the ones who held contrary views were “barking relentlessly”…Basically by someone who was so intellectually challenged so as to leave the group in a huff after hurling some abuses at people who differed from the mainstream.

If any so-called “challenges to eliminate religions (sic)” are accepted, it will sound like the democrats arguing within the republican framework–dealing with the later’s concerns and trying to see how to face redundant challenges.

Seems to me that the issues as seen by Chinmaya or Vulcan or Anup or Sanjib or Saswat are radically different from how they were perceived by Mar, Man, AA or An and all other proclaimed “theists”.
There lies the misunderstanding.

The “summery of the whole episode” is as one-sided as it could be, obviously because it has been narrated by someone who anyway belonged to one school than the other. Not just in degree, but in type as well.

Wheras one school is raising questions about the questions, the other is challenging the seekers to supply with answers else to ‘stop barking’. Two different molds of thoughts here.

In solidarity,
Saswat

___
And here is one from Vulcan, that adorable man!

Since a Reality check is being asked …here it is for the renewed “AhwaAna”.

But before proceeding please makes sure you won’t run away like others.

What Manu did five thousand years ago, preachers of GOD still trying to continue & maintain it. Manu made Hindu society into four classes. There is no mobility. You are born a brahmin, that is the only way to be a brahmin. And that is the highest society, the topmost class. Then number two is the warriors, the kings . the Khyatriyas. But you are born in that caste, it is not a question that you can move. Then third is the class of the vaishyas, the business people; you are born in it. And the fourth is the sudras, the untouchables. All are born into their caste. That’s why, until Christianity started converting so many Hindus, particularly the sudras, who were ready, very willing to become Christians, because at least they would be touchable. Amongst Hindus, sudras are untouchable, and there is no way to get out of the structure.For your whole life you have to remain the same as your forefathers remained for five thousand years. For five thousand years there has been a stratified society. If somebody is a shoemaker, his family has been making shoes for five thousand years. He cannot do any other work, he cannot enter into any other profession. That is not allowed. Hindus were not a converting religion, because the great question was, if you convert somebody, in what class are you going to put the person? Christianity is a converting religion because it has no classification; you simply become a Christian. If Catholics convert you, you become a Catholic; if Protestants convert you, you become a Protestant. But in Hinduism you cannot be converted, for the simple reason: Where will you put the converted ? Brahmins won’t allow you, and you would not like to be put with the sudras, the untouchables. So then what is the point of coming to a religion where you will not be even touched? Even your shadow will be untouchable. And a brahmin has to take a bath if the shadow of a sudra falls on him. The sudra has not touched him, but his shadow is also untouchable. Being the ancient most religion, still Hinduism has not been spreading; it has been shrinking. Buddhism spread all over Asia, and it is only twenty-five centuries old. Hinduism is at least ten thousand years old, or more, but it could not spread, for the simple reason that birth is decisive. You can be a Hindu only by birth, just as you can be a Jew only by birth and these are the two most ancient religions.

But if you carefully notice & observe, you will find now the society is changing, people are marrying from different caste to caste , Govt is making some reservation to uplift the untouchable/backward classes, Restriction for sudra going to temple is removing, Untouchably is slowly disappearing etc., etc. Now hindus living & earning their daily bread outside Orissa & India eating holy cow meat, drinking holy madhus in party, listening disco,pop,rap (instead of classical hindu music) in a cultural festivals.Even now a days,does not bother to watch latest bollywood movies, with friends & families together, And these people don’t mind to go & lecture in a church, but when questioned leaving this forum on frustation.After all people like highest religious leader getting arrested like local goondas too :-).And the most surprising is other preachers of GOD ( like Imam etc) coming forward in support of him. Not just to show harmony but to make sure they should not face the similar consequence when the opposition party comes to power.

So what the preachers of GOD are saying about the happening of changes without a road maps/plans ? Do they need further plans/roadmaps etc on this regard? And why should a branded atheist respond to the call of a theist where as the Challenger run away from the forum when his/her own faith/belief of religion is sacked by branded atheist(s).

So I dare & challenge all these preachers of GOD to stop these happening of changes or spread Hinduism as the only Religion or merge all the Religions into one? Which ever you think best suited for you. But don’t worry I’ll not run away if you do not accept my challenge either, because I have enough confidence that you can’t do that rather will slowly accept & adapt to these happening of changes like the Internet, which is materialistic in nature.

Regards
JENA

Bob Dylan is still the Best!

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Click here to get the top 100 song list:
Well what do you all think? Is there a better one?
Check this out… Its not just sheer poetry. Its Bob Dylan!

“You’ve gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you’re gonna have to get used to it
You said you’d never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He’s not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?”

Hindu Seer XII

Chinmaya gives it back to the AA:

Dear AA Babu,
Cool down. World is beautiful, and so your posts and everythings.

Have I asked you anything ? What was the need of answering so rudely to a news ?

Name it an ugly trick, whatever you please.You are entitled to judge people,and their acts in your own way.Who cares ? Hope, M bhai, Mark Bhaina, An bhaina would have understood the value of *excuse* in the proper context.

Do not know, if you do not prefer to use harsh words to others .A mail with caps and the conents in it might be mere deception to all of us.For reference, read your this mail one once more.

I asked you do not take things to heart, its because a news head line made you unnecessarily so reactive and irritated. If that was a trickery,take the burden of the discussion to your home,die with anguish and heartattack.I do not bother.

There was a smiley after that statement. Now, I am sure you lack the etiquette of conversation, or severely suffering with some kind of complex.Anyway, thats your problem.But,please, do not inflict others with that.

Enough; crap minded fellow, idiocy,burdens on society,and …, what not ? Hello, who are you to fix limits for others, what one can do, or not ? Enlighten fellow, Why do not you sprinkle your knowldege over the poor people ?

Whenever we claimed ourselves atheists,pseduo whatever ?

Beg excuses, its an ugly tricekry.Huh. AA Babu, what more I should write ?

For rest of the things, barkings and others..you do not deserve a reply.

No sorry, No excuse this time.I do not think you deserve
it too.
Be happy.

Hindu Seer XI

My reply to a previous post:

Dear Brother Sar
I wish you could have shown similar level of sensitivity to adjectives in mails
directed at fellow members of this group! There were many more crude languages
used to refer to many of us (just for one example we were “barking”!)

Just because someone (who is obviously not part of this group) is proclaimed
religious, even though the same person is accused of highest criminal charges,
that became so personal?

I am sorry if my calling a guy a guy hurt some people. I should have called him
an “accused” or a “suspect” instead. But why should one suspect be addressed
better than any other? The police calls all names when it comes to a
suspect–you know the swears. But when it comes to someone is an influential
person and most likely can misuse his/her power, why this “plain bias”?

By the way, I am not firing up anything. I guess the reports are out and the
prime suspect (aka sankaracharya) is in judicial custody. His bail application
has been adjourned. The news is out there on the wall. I am not instrumental in
firing up anything. Every person involved in any way in a case of murder ought
to be treated in the same way as any other. Clearly this accused is on a higher
platform now, unfortunately. The police will not be kicking his ass to get the
answers out. Wont be treating him with third degree methods, would not be
spitting on his face or burning his cheeks with cigarette butts and wont be
swearing in choicest abuses questioning the parentage or sexual impotencies.

Just for the records I have witnessed the police doing all this and much more
even in case of people who have dared to steal bicycles or not cooperated in
giving bribes when demanded. Clearly there is a “plain bias”.
We know of this judiciary system where in name of Tada or Poto we have caged
thousands of innocent people for no charges at all. People who have not seen the
face of the court since the time they are in jail. Not allowed to appeal for a
public lawyer or request for release. This accused who HAS been charged with
murder already has been allowed to move court!!! Clearly there is a “plain
bias”.

To be the devil’s advocate, the dangerous communalists Singhals and Tagodias
have joined the fray. Singhal compares this arrest with Somnath Temple
destruction! Clearly the politics and religions are now mixed up to “fire up”
issues. and the violent crusaders of peace, the trishul-bearing kar sevaks are
already on the street- yes making us–people like Sanjib or me–ashamed of being
called Indian–to see that representation of our country in name of religious
intolerance of a superstitious supremacist group. the non-violent, peacenik,
internationalist India has been reduced to a communal violent playground for
religious fanatics.

And I am not the one to fire up anything.

Clearly its a vibrant case to debate on. Chinmaya did a favor on all of us by
bringing in the article to our attention (not that it would have eventually
escaped, but most us would may have preferred to ignore it…who knows? Going by
P babu’s mail, three regular contributors have already left the group! I
did not leave the group when they were discussing religious texts–if it is out
of disgust that the religious seer has been arrested and they refuse to be
identified as religious anymore and have trouble in being treated so, its nice
and they are more than welcome to be back. All of us realize our fundamental
fallacies at many junctures of life, anyway). And we are merely discussing the
pros and cons of such treatments to ‘seers’. We are not alone. The whole of
India is discussing. Media are editorializing. People are asking pertinent
questions.

One of the questions of course is if a goonda could be a sankaracharya. Bhai
Sar, if you can go so far as to guarantee that its impossible, I at least am
of some opinion that it could be true. In the past and present we have seen all
mob violences in the name of religion. All those thousands of people have given
up their lives under one instruction of religious leaders. When the whole of
Mumbai was burning (just to cite one example of event that happened during my
lifetime), and many parts were being ‘fired up’ many people were charged with
being goondas. And goondas they were. those preachers of religious goods.
including advani who later most ironically accepted to become home minister when
charges were piled up against him of inciting communal violence.

We all clearly know of this sankaracharya’s connection with right-wing politics.
What is there to be so sacred about him?
Biased I am, Sar, because I cannot afford to be neutral or objective or
unbiased -whatever that means and if thats possible in any way. Its time to take
a side. To take side either of the exploiting politicians who use religions to
their advantage and even nurture chances of getting away with mass murders and
communal clashes, or to take side of the people who have been taken for a ride
and who have potentials to question the blind beliefs.

We all have been taken for rides throughout. Sometimes by the founding fathers
of the nation (look at that holy cow business in the directive principles of
state policy. will we have any more tolerance for chicken or goat or pig as we
have for cow? to respect whom? Hindu country or secular country –even after the
late 70’s when we got ourselves the secular tag), sometimes by the families and
social institutions (look at the widespread same-caste marriages, and the whole
thread ceremony stuffs–to prove what–as national geographic talks of, to quote
San–that we are born unequal?) and all the lies that our teachers told us
through the history of peace and glory and the golden age of indian culture
(sic).

‘Tis time we questioned. San has sent an extremely insightful mail drawing
from his caste experiences. That should do more than good for all of us to ask
our conscience to examine if we have asked the right questions? have we
questioned the systems of exploitation founded on religious beliefs? what do we
owe to the generations of indigenous people for having perpetuated the class and
caste war on them for centuries. what can we give back? to seek forgiveness?
instead we still enjoy the privilege of belonging to a mainstream religion to
address issues from our narrowed lenses. to still wonder why saswat thinks a
sankaracharya could be a goonda. instead of thinking of all the crimes that have
been committed in the land of ours in the name of our religion? millions dead so
far, certainly, not in quest to create something novel, or struggling in a
revolution to feed every hungry child. millions have been condemned to death by
religious preachers by causing communal riots since the last sixty years. and
what have we got here? the leader of the pack is still around. sounds crazy. but
we should have arrested all those spokesmen and women of right wing politics who
have been instrumental in everything communal much before. the charge of one
sole murder was much belated.

Dear brother Sar, I am not here to offend anyone’s feelings. That’s the
least of the goals. But it so happens that in airing one’s own perspectives,
there will be many others who will stand a chance of being offended. I have
never taken offense at the religious discourses in this group despite having
strong feeling about the irrelevance of those talks in face of the fact that
Orissa faces problems and questions of different types. No one really can help
if a section of hindus felt bad that the seer was arrested. He will be released
of course. Because of his clout. And some hindus will be dancing once again.
Like they did in gujarat, like the way they do in ayodhya or nearer home when
they cheered for dara singh.
That dance sucks.
With due respect
Saswat
_____

Follows a right mail. And explains why Chinmaya did not need to have been polite. But good he was. Who wants a riot?

This one is from another one threatening to leave the forum.

UGLY TRICKS OF PREUDO-ATHEISTS
——————————

The above statement asking for pardon from Chinmay has been repeated
in past several times – to M Babu to Ma Babu, to
An… He writes absurd stuff, illogical arguments; and then he
writes “I am sorry; I should have understood it; I am happy to be
enlightened…”

Besides, he poses a question, “why do you take things so seriously
by heart?” as he questioned the same to me recently.

These “poor people” do NOT take anything seriously by heart; that is
why all the mess. If we are not serious about what we speak, what
are we going to achieve? If you have to make light amusement, do so
in your own circle at a Tea-shop; not to some serious discussions. I
am against use of harsh words, but these people forced me to do so.

Plainly, these people can do nothing but question some dogma without
understanding or without trying to understand. Thus, they do not get
any benefit, nor does the society. Besides, this apathy does no
benefit to people like M Babu or Ma Babu either!

These are “psuedo-atheists”. Because, an atheist is rational, and
does huge contributions to the society. These crap-minded fellows
are nothing but burden on the society just because of their
irrational idiocy. that’s it.

Sanjib, in past I have explained several rationales in religion;
read my postings before branding me as someone blindly following
religion.

Saswat, I called your group “poor” not in terms of economy; economy
playes no role in intellectual discussions. I called your group poor
simply because you are poor in rational, logical understanding. And,
you understood economy! What a disgrace are you to such forum!

I know that you pseudo-atheists have no ability to do anthing except
barking. That is why none of you came forward in proposing a roadmap
to eliminate religion. If you are so much against it, why not remove
it? Who does your barking benefit?

I know: You cannot propose a roadmap nor can you execute it because
(i) you have no ability to do so; and (ii) religion is just.

Good bye. I wish you all safe opportunity of relentless barking.
Good Bye,
AA